How Brands Actually Grow with Byron Sharp

00:00Byron SharpHow do you win? Lots more customers. Yeah, well, I need to improve my mental and physical availability. If I expand my mental and physical availability, I’ll get a bit more from my existing customer base. Yes, but the main thing you’ll get is lots more customers.

00:18Alex CHey, this is Alex Cleanthous and today we’re talking with Byron Shop, who’s the author of the book Our Brands Grow. And in this episode, we talk about how to think about marketing in a world where marketers seem to have got it wrong. Performance and brand are conversations that have been going around for a while, but the conversation should probably move to mental availability and physical availability.

00:41Alex CAnd that’s what we’re going to be talking about in this podcast with Byron Sharp in particular, he talks about how most important thing is rich and how loyalty isn’t what companies think it is. So if you want to grow, if you want to have more loyal customers, and if you want to understand how the big brands become big brands and why they seem to continue to last over time, then this episode is for you.

01:04Alex CSo I hope you enjoy it and I’ll see you at the end, or I’ll catch you on the flip side. So I’m a marketer and I’ve been around lots of marketers. And marketers tend to have this way that they think that their gut feel means something, and that the kind of the things that they know and the things that they have experience and the people kind of who they know kind of represent how it is.

01:31Alex CRight. And so what I found super interesting about your book, How Brands Grow, is that you actually gone and found some evidence based facts around how consumers make decisions and how loyalty works and how sales work and so on. So what did you find that was interesting? Compared to how kind of marketers think that things work?

01:54Byron SharpOkay. Exactly. Answer your question. It’s quite normal that people use intuition and what feels good, but I that just doesn’t work for marketing because our brains are designed for, you know, survival out on the African savanna. And, and we’re very social. Right? So we love telling stories, and we’ve, you know, we’re absolutely we know how to communicate in more logic.

02:20Byron Sharp1 to 1 may be, you know, may be a few more than that was marketers have this weird job of having to sell to, thousands if not millions, sometimes even billions of strangers. That that’s never happened in human evolution. Right? And, your brain just can’t handle that. Really? But you think you can, and that’s very misleading.

02:45Byron SharpAlso, the sort of people that marketers, farmers typically are, well, sort of like in the 1% of human wealth, education, you know, they, they just, normal people, and they don’t hang out with normal people. So, it gives a very, biased, weird view of the world. But what the what what the book happens, Gary does is, show.

03:11Byron SharpI mean, it’s famous for introducing or publicizing, and explaining some scientific laws and scientific laws, repeating patterns that occur in the real world. And they tend to be, every scientific law has been, like a bit mind bending. You know, almost every scientific discovery of any value is a bit weird until we wrap our heads around it.

03:37Byron SharpAnd so the same. So, the most famous is the double jeopardy law, which is we call it, you know, it’s a law because it’s ubiquitous. It’s everywhere. Right? You know, from anywhere with this competitive brand choice, with the choosing between, following a football team, you know, which television programs get watched, which brands of laundry detergent get bored?

04:02Byron SharpThis patent occurs, and it says that bigger brands, you know, more popular items are bought by more people or known by more people. And those people are slightly more loyal than the buyers, that if you buy a small brand, and that has really profound, you know, if you’re a CFO or a numbers based person, of course you immediately recognize weight on how many customers I have and then how much business each one gives me or how low they, that’s my sales.

04:36Byron SharpAnd so this is describing your sales and saying your sales are made up of if you’re a big brand, a lot more customers who and you also get a little bit more from them. But the main driver of why you have so many more sales than the small brand is you have so many more customers. And that is really counterintuitive because it seems it feels right that you could have lots of what we call niche brands and marketing.

05:02Byron SharpYou know, it’s small and it doesn’t have many customers, but those customers are really loyal. They like it so much. And yeah, well, if that happened, we wouldn’t get a double jeopardy law. We wouldn’t see it. I would see law, you know, you’d have you’d go, well, you know, the smallest brand in the category is the loyalty leader that.

05:21Byron SharpNo, never, never.

05:23Alex CSo the double jeopardy law, just for the listeners is that you get more loyalty, the more penetration. But the reverse is not the same, right.

05:31Byron SharpSo this penetration, you get less spending.

05:33Alex CBut what’s interesting is that brands think that if I’m smaller, I have more loyal customers. Yeah. Because the I’m more personal and more customized and so on. And so what your evidence has found is that that’s not the case at all. And so this concept of I’ll attract it was Seth Godin. Right. Like you find your first thousand customers, your first thousand, the true believers or whatever.

05:59Alex CAnd that starts the brand off.

06:00Byron SharpBut why work?

06:01Alex CWell, it’s not exactly the same way round, right? Is the fact that you’re not going to get these little competitors from a thousand.

06:08Byron SharpYeah. It’s, I mean, said God. And so there’s not a researcher. He doesn’t let data or evidence get in the way of a good story.

06:17Alex CHow many people do you know that have done the research around this type of purchasing decisions, like as far as I know. So you’re the first person I’ve heard that’s actually kind of done anything that’s more kind of evidence based. And all the marketing books I’ve ever read, I don’t think there’s any evidence, any of them, fascinatingly, except for you all.

06:38Alex CWhen was the first one? I actually read something. I was like, everything I thought was true was not true. Exactly. Like, so can I have a question? Right. How does it work if people got it so wrong? You know what I mean? Like if people like this thing where or is it just that there’s so many kind of failed brands that we don’t hear about and they just get kind of left to the dust?

06:59Alex CAnd then the ones that we do hear about have figured this out. Where the more penetration, the more loyalty, the less penetration, the less loyalty. And this goes to the conversation which we often have is like, oh, should we keep advertising just to the same people that we already have in our email database, or should we like an email marketing and or that part an advertising is now for acquisition, like because this is a conversation I have with a lot of ecommerce brands and they often are speaking about, oh, well, we’ve already acquired them.

07:27Alex CAnd the part about database and now because about email marketing and flows, it just seems to work. My perspective always, has always been you need to keep advertising to them because they’re going to forget you. An email marketing is maybe not that powerful. Is this on the right path? Is this incorrect? Like, I don’t mind if you just shut me down and say not.

07:44Byron SharpNo, no, no. It’s, if, you know, I mean, it’s it’s like going back in time. It’s, you know, database marketing was a was a big thing at the turn of the century.

07:55Alex CIt’s still big now, by the way. Like it seems to have, like, stopped for a bit because they thought the social media was going to happen. And then now, for some reason, email marketing is one of the top sources. Yeah. Lots of brands right now.

08:07Byron SharpYeah. Well, even better than, you know, in the days of database marketing, they actually cost you a dollar. And instead of sending letters to people now, it’s sort of free. But, yeah, you’re up against an awful lot of clutter. Yeah. There’s nothing obviously, that is an asset to have a list of names and email addresses, but it’s not a growth strategy.

08:26Byron SharpThe the value of that asset actually erodes over time. So you’ve got to reach beyond it.

08:31Alex CBut because you talk about, the two con areas, that the brands need to think about is the mental and physical availability. Could you just expand on just what you mean by that? Because I think there’s all sorts to connect.

08:45Byron SharpWell, yes. Well, the mental and physical availability is the story, the theory that that happens to fit with, the empirical norms that we, that we now know of, and previous theory, the previous dominant theory was a thing called segmentation targeting positioning, which was a sort of, it said that the way you compete, or at least you know, try to compete and be viable in marketing profits is to try to sort of run away from the competitors that you you try to find a bit of the market that you can set, hopefully better than they can.

09:19Byron SharpAnd you position yourself into that, that segment, and this idea that, that, you know, if there are ten brands in a category, they’re all differentiated in a different way so that they’re all tied into a different segment. And, that’s not that’s not what the evidence shows at all. So you have to come up with a new explanation of how brands compete and why some are bigger than others.

09:42Byron SharpAnd, it’s the bigger brands have more mental and physical availability, so they are easier to buy for more people. And those people buy multiple brands, but they’ll buy you sometimes. And, you will get the right amount of loyalty for your size. In line with the double jeopardy law. So the really big implication is that you, you know, reach is not optional if you want to grow your car, right, a growth plan that doesn’t acquire lots more customers expand the size of the customer base.

10:17Byron SharpYou can’t grow without more customers.

10:21Alex CShould brands continue advertising to customers who have purchased a couple times? So should you continue to advertise to people who have already acquired inside of your database? Oh yeah, there is a customer. But now you think the email marketing is going to fix everything.

10:36Byron SharpLike, well, it’s nice that you’ve now got their email address and you can send them an email, but I have no idea whether that’s actually reaching any brains. So it helps to advertise as well.

10:47Alex CWhat does mental availability mean?

10:48Byron SharpIt’s a chance. It’s the chance that people think of you when they’re going into a buying situation, or that they notice you on the shelf, or they see you on screen. And that’s a really valuable asset, right? They should be talking to your CFO and saying, my job is to nurture that asset and make it more valuable. But my biggest job, of course, is to make sure it doesn’t erode.

11:14Byron SharpAnd to do that, the cheapest way that I can do that is usually some is to tap into some sort of, what publicity? Publicity is a great way of doing it, but into some sort of broad reach, cheap media.

11:29Alex CThat I can meta ads or something, or Facebook ads or whatever it is, or TikTok or.

11:33Byron SharpOutdoor or.

11:33Alex CWhatever. Outdoor. I mean, everything changes prices and trends, doesn’t it, these days, but it’s basically the key point is to get in front of people, right? And to stay in front of people.

11:43Byron SharpAnd yeah, just I mean, to remind them that your brand still exists. I mean, a lot of a lot of advertising. It’s, you know, if we really boil it down, it’s job is to say hi, remember us, you know, you you bought a shirt from our shop, you know, three and a half years ago. It was a good fit.

12:02Byron SharpDo you? Yeah. You could buy from us again. You know, we’re still here.

12:08Alex CIt’s not the same as it. And so what I found interesting is that. And maybe it’s in your books, that maybe it was in some podcasts I listen to because I did some research ahead of time, obviously. And I thought some of the other podcasts, which I quite liked, was that, people have to have the brand in their head before they can say the brand on the shelf.

12:23Alex CYeah, like the brand itself is going to be. So good. It looks amazing. The fonts, the color scheme, everything so amazing. It’s not that that does the work. That just helps you to recall the brand. Can you just expand on that? Because I found that really, really fascinating, by the way.

12:39Byron SharpYeah. I think it is important to earn big best contribution to the world just to remind people that, people screen out stuff so much and it’s almost mind blowing and thinking like, why did we not notice this massive psychological thing of that? We screen out and, I think I think cancers because you don’t notice what you’re not noticing.

12:59Byron SharpSo you think, oh, I went into the supermarket and I saw my stuff and I got out. What? You don’t. But but the really amazing thing is all the things you did not see.

13:12Alex CAnd how many products are on the shelf, like there’s, like,

13:14Byron Sharp30,000 and the typical supermarket.

13:16Alex CYeah. And so nobody goes, oh, I just saw 30,000 products and I really like that logo from that 30,000. Right?

13:22Byron SharpYeah, yeah. A typical household only buys 300 out of the 30,000 over a whole year.

13:30Alex CSo then the goal of the marketer is to be in their mind when they’re walking down the aisle. Yeah. So so when they say they get it, they.

13:39Byron SharpGo, they get a chance. Yeah. Because it’s often thought that the job of a monster is to make the pack, you know, stand out and leap out off the shelf. But it’s actually it’s just so, so difficult to do. I mean, every now and then, you know, you’re on Amazon or something and someone’s bought a display ad. So, you know, you see it.

13:59Byron SharpAnd I happen to be in that category that you were really interested in. You see it. But the reality is we we, we zoom in on things that we already know. See, I knew the brand of microphone that you were using. I think you mentioned a couple and I couldn’t, you know, they just with the. Yeah. It’s so hard to it’s so hard to take in stuff that you don’t know.

14:24Byron SharpAnd that’s why, I mean, so that’s why mental availability is really so valuable. Because once you have got it between people’s ears, it doesn’t ever really disappear. It gets harder to retrieve. And that’s why you do need to keep refreshing it, you know, saying, hi, we’re here. But but it has it can last for a very, very, very long time.

14:45Byron SharpThat’s why brands just don’t fall out of the market.

14:47Alex CYeah.

14:48Byron SharpI remember someone invents a better brand. It’s better it’s function, it tastes better, whatever. And it comes in. It does not stall in the market because the established brands have mental and physical availability advantages that are just massive. And that’s particularly true in B2B. You know, this is what, about four big accounting firms in the world? I betcha when we’re in retirement, they’ll still be for big accounting firms.

15:17Alex CAnd and so that’s mental availability. And the second one,

15:21Byron SharpThis is a physical event, physical availability.

15:23Alex CRight. Yeah. So pool availability is about like.

15:26Byron SharpIs it easy to buy from you, you know, are you in the store I shop in. Do you have the pack size I can fit in my car, you know, have I got the app on my phone? If someone hasn’t got the Uber app on their phone, their chance of ordering it over when they could order a taxi or anything is the zero, right?

15:49Byron SharpSo that’s that’s physical availability.

15:52Alex CJust so.

15:53Byron SharpBeing there.

15:54Alex CSo for an e-commerce brand. Yeah. Who just sells online is just the fact that they can purchase the product fast and it comes fast. Is that enough of a physical availability or does it help to have like.

16:08Byron SharpIt’s.

16:09Alex CIn stores where people can see it, touch it, feel it? Like, how does that it? Oh, well, in my perspective.

16:15Byron SharpThis is just all about the quality of of the physical availability, right? I mean, we have a brand here in Australia, Flight Center. I was just walk through on the mall and I noticed a big, you know, banner, new flight center, you know, coming, you know, soon. And it was all beautifully branded and things a successful brand.

16:32Byron SharpBut they’re hugely online. Right. But they’re also they also have physical stores. That’s just, you know, that just gives them better physical availability. But look, it’s it’s little things like, you know, does does your website take PayPal or do you demand that people type in their credit card, you know, which is more physically available, one click with total Security or a real pain that I have to put my credit card in and hope that you don’t leak it to someone else.

17:04Byron SharpSo they’re all these little things that we do as marketers. You know, do you take American Express? Will you deliver? Will the delivery be, you know, these are all physical available return policy.

17:15Alex CRight.

17:15Byron SharpBecause the policy experiencing it.

17:18Alex CI was talking, to client and, and they were telling me a story about, like, this campaign they ran ages ago, and it was around, freight pickup and delivery for car service. And it kind of helped, the car dealership in the US make so much money that year because, because, it made it easy for them just to get a service done.

17:40Alex CSo now I can just get it done. And so is that an example of.

17:44Byron SharpYeah, it is. Absolutely.

17:44Alex CIt’s making it really easy for the consumer to go. Yeah, yeah. Take it. Thanks. Bye. Yeah.

17:50Byron SharpAbsolutely. And it’s quite astonishing isn’t it. How complacent some markets are. They’ll say things like oh we’re e-commerce brand. You know we know we’re on Amazon you know okay. And and what that’s the way you’re thinking stops. You should be thinking every day. How do I make it easier for people to buy me. Not something else.

18:12Alex CSo there’s a concept called nudging. Is this part of the process where you’re kind of encouraging people to take something a little bit more of a step towards your brand or.

18:23Byron SharpYeah, I suppose so. That’s that’s.

18:26Alex CThe inside.

18:27Byron SharpPsychology stuff. Yeah, it is, it is, it recognizes that we’re incredibly habitual. And, most of the time we don’t, you know, we don’t we don’t need something new. We don’t we don’t like changing our behavior. And so you have to fit in rather than saying to people, I like I often thought about Markham’s attitude problem. Monkeys have this, they tend to convert old problems into an attitude problem.

18:54Byron SharpRight? So if you say we need to get more people, I don’t know. Recycling the cardboard. People get. Right. Let’s run an ad about the beauty of nature and get people to care more about the environment and say to them that recycling is about caring for the environment. Yeah, well, the it isn’t an attitude problem. They actually already do care about the environment.

19:19Byron SharpIt’s just you haven’t made it easy for them to recycle the cardboard. So the whole nudge thing was about. Right. How could I do it? And so it was easy for people, a classic is, you know, if you go to a popular music festival or something like that and you’re like, oh, which bin does this go in?

19:36Alex CAnd, I know that one very well.

19:39Byron SharpIt’s not a really simple thing is to put on the bins, pictures or actual physical, you know, things of the different products that go into the bin ever. I can understand that color coding. Well, I have to remember the color and I went to different countries.

19:57Alex CYellow I mean, what’s yeah, it’s red. It’s,

20:01Byron SharpYou know, so that is. Yeah, it’s very much in line with the idea that, the consumers are habitual. They this is a very big world out there with so many things, and they just they just want to get on with their lives. So, this is why mental and physical availability, the the the mental. It’s not the total battle for a brand, right?

20:23Byron SharpI mean, there’s product quality and making sure prices and the barrier and all these sorts of things. But in the long run, there’s no such thing as a big brand that has a mental and physical availability deficit.

20:36Alex CThat’s true. And I like your example on flights and it because yes, probably the majority of their traffic and sales. Well, I would assume only because I’m an online marketer, it would be online. And yet having physical locations adds credibility, adds a place where people can go. Maybe there’s a whole segment of the market who doesn’t even kind of use the internet, right?

20:55Alex CSo that’s part of that whole thing, which I can’t imagine as someone who’s on the line, someone who’s on the internet, but, I think this is where marketers have to get out of their own heads about how they shop and how they experience the world and understand that the world of every place.

21:11Byron SharpYes. I was reading recently introduced a phone number for people who don’t have the app. You know, a phone number like, you know, like, taxi. It is amazing. Yeah, I know, so I, I’m going to I think some clever person at Uber suddenly went, you know, not everyone has a smartphone or, you know, like, or maybe the battery’s gone down and there’s a, a payphone, which is, you know, which are often they’re not payphones, they’re free.

21:38Byron SharpRight. But they still can’t call a new because, we don’t have a phone number. Right. It would improve our physical availability to have a phone number as well. Yeah.

21:50Alex CWhen I was in the US, I think was the first time, maybe 15, 20 years ago. It was the first time that I saw all the online companies advertising on billboards, and I was like. And I started talking to a few.

22:04Byron SharpAll the.

22:06Alex CPeople around there.

22:07Byron SharpI’m old enough to remember the dotcom revolution. They advertised on billboards. Oh yeah.

22:10Alex CYeah, that was after that had crashed and it had come back. So it’s like 15. That’s probably around like 2000s, maybe early 20 tens.

22:19Byron SharpYeah.

22:20Alex CBut but I just remember that those advertising billboards on TV and these were just kind of websites only. And I started speaking to some marketers over there and they were saying, yeah, because they’re fully exhausted online. Every possible kind of section online has now just been, you know, kind of optimized. They have to go like expanding out because otherwise they’re limited in their market.

22:42Alex CSo I found it. What are you opening that the online companies would go offline or into kind of above the line to expand the market. And I think it’s a it’s a simple example, right?

22:55Byron SharpYeah. A lot of markets don’t think about the mental and physical. The and realize there’s quite a lot of separation between the two. Right. And so though they’re doing things online which they think are advertising but it’s not it’s it’s only going to it’s only catching the people who are like in the market now, and you’re not reaching the brains of people who the vast majority people who aren’t in the market now.

23:22Byron SharpAnd so, yeah, billboards, mass advertising is the way to do that. Also, it’s a simple thing if someone’s not online, if they’re if they’re a like, you know, they’re a low user of social media or something like that, why is that? And the answer is because they’re probably out and about and being busy. So you think.

23:44Byron SharpRight. What’s the medium that would be this is this thing called out.

23:50Alex CYeah. They.

23:51Byron SharpYeah. Well yeah.

23:53Alex CTV particularly outdoor but.

23:55Byron SharpParticularly radio and TV and outdoor. Yeah. It would be obvious fit for that. Yeah. You’ve got to reach. Right. I mean, reach is not optional unless you want to shrink or be small.

24:06Alex CThe rich is not optional. I’ve got a few questions. Let me ask you this question first, though. You mentioned there in your book and podcast somewhere that I think it was McDonald’s or Coca-Cola, the like, but others hundreds of millions of orders a year. But it’s one time purchase. So it’s like this big chunk of their sales.

24:26Alex CI’m not saying it’s all there’s no loyalty in there. But what a big part of this.

24:31Byron SharpNo no no no no no no no no.

24:33Alex CRight.

24:34Byron SharpThere is loyalty. There is, there is loyalty. Yeah yeah. Loyalty is absolutely fundamental. Consumers. You know as I said that households two brands or anything 300 items out of 30,000. You like what they be. It’s because they keep going back. They buy. You know, I just asked my daughter to get milk from the shops until she got the same brand of milk.

24:52Byron SharpYou know, it’s like that’s our brand of milk. You know, it’s consumers are loyal. Yeah. I wanted to show a thing, which is a particular statistical distribution that fits underpins the laws, like, double jeopardy. And, I chose the biggest brand I could think of, which is Coca-Cola. And, Yeah, it’s the biggest single group of Coca-Cola buyers.

25:19Byron SharpThe in a year, people who bought them once and the next biggest is twice, and the next biggest is three. And by the time you doing once, twice three, you’ve you’ve covered something like 30, 40% of their sales volume. And that’s.

25:37Alex CThat’s a really important point. I just want people just to reflect on right now that 30, 40% of the sales volume of Coca-Cola are from people who buy a maximum three times a year. I think I’ve had a Coke, because I drink Coke Zero because it’s like kind of, it’s by one thing I’ve got left. Right?

25:53Alex CBut I have that much more frequently. What I’ve now kind of is probably one of the more kind of loyal customers. Right?

26:00Byron SharpOh, yeah. You’re heavy. Yeah.

26:02Alex CYou’re a heavy user. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The user. Right. But what’s interesting is that when brands think about marketing, I mean, let’s all the ones I talk to that focus on their top segments and their most loyal customers are focused on kind of loyalty kind of programs. But what you just mentioned is that this whole other section, which I going to buy from you kind of once or twice a year, but that can make up a very large proportion of your total revenue for that year.

26:26Byron SharpYeah.

26:27Alex CSo how did brands start thinking about this again? Again, like is this is coming back just to the mental and physical availability and then just to get everything else almost.

26:33Byron SharpYeah, I mean inReach is not optional. You know you can reach.

26:37Alex CIs not optional and optional.

26:39Byron SharpYou can’t write a growth plan that says we’re going to get more out of our existing customers. It’s like, well, your existing customers will buy you a little bit more if you want a whole lot more customers. And then you get the dichotomy almost.

26:54Alex CYou get more loyalty.

26:55Byron SharpYeah.

26:56Alex CBy increasing.

26:57Byron SharpBy winning.

26:58Alex CMore customers. Yes. Because everyone would think, counterintuitively, that all the big brands have the worst kind of loyalty because they’re so big and they’re not. Yeah, because they’re impersonal. And all this just because.

27:10Byron SharpThe market is using this sort of intuition and seeing everything as an attitude thing, whereas it’s, it’s not. So if you I mean, how do you win lots more customers. Yeah. Well, I need to improve my mental and physical availability, particularly amongst people who can’t I I’ve got to find ways to, to, to, you know, to reach people who it’s, you know, I need to expand like, more in the stores or in the South.

27:37Byron SharpI don’t have any stores in the North. Right. Well, we should open some stores in the north. Right. And. Yeah. Right. Well, yeah, that would win a small customers that are winners like the northerners. But it’ll also win a few more sales from the Southerners because the Southerners sometimes drive in the North. And so, okay. So if I expand my mental and physical ability, I’ll get a bit more from my existing customer base.

28:00Byron SharpYes, but the main thing you’ll get is lots more customers.

28:05Alex COkay, I’m gonna ask you a controversial question. Well, I’m not sure if it’s controversial yet, but loyalty programs. If loyalty is a function of penetration.

28:15Alex CWhat is a loyalty program for them?

28:17Byron SharpCan it do? Yeah. Well, the research is pretty clear that they don’t do a lot.

28:23Alex CIs that true?

28:24Byron SharpYeah.

28:25Alex CDon’t do a lot.

28:25Byron SharpYeah. In chapter 12 of how brands go, you can read all the. Well, you can read a very short summary of all the research. And it is basically do loyalty programs increase loyalty? And the answer is yes. A little bit. Yeah. But I mean the very title. Right. Loyalty programs and they don’t increase loyalty very much. No.

28:46Byron SharpOh why is that. Well, it’s it’s a selection effect. The problem is, you know who’s going to join my loyalty program. Alright. Let me see. Who would I like to join my loyalty program. I’d really like people who we’re, very heavy buyers of the category, but we’re buying lots of other brands, and then they switch to me and they give me all their purchases.

29:07Byron SharpYeah, yeah. Okay. Who’s going to join your loyalty program? The people who already buy from me. Yes. So you know that that even that heavy buyer who buys other brands is probably not going to join your loyalty program. Even though I could get a lot of points and stuff if they did, because they I don’t buy that brand.

29:30Alex CSo there are.

29:31Byron SharpOh, sorry. That’s even if they say that because of course they wouldn’t. They don’t even see the loyalty program. Right? I mean, I don’t know. I’m sure that South China Airlines has a loyalty program, if you ask, but I’m guessing, right, because I go, I’ve never flown them and not in my repertoire. So. Yeah, of course, I don’t belong to the loyalty program.

29:55Byron SharpWho’s lost? Who’s the airline loyalty program to blow to Qantas? Why? Because I have to fly Condor. You know, it’s. I cannot avoid flying fonder. So of course, I joined the program because they give me all stuff. They give me stuff.

30:08Alex CSo that’s that’s that’s super interesting because you think, like because that was going to be the first example, right. All right. So I fly with, with a particular airline. Yeah I just keep flying with them. But you know what if there’s no flights I’ll follow the other, I’ll jump on the other flight like straight away. Right.

30:22Alex CI would just ten but but so but yeah.

30:25Byron SharpSo so it.

30:26Alex CAlso programs apples.

30:27Byron SharpPears have it have a bit of an effect but that not much. They’re not gonna you’re not going to like, you know, get on a way more expensive or inconvenient flight because you might get a few points, but not that stupid.

30:40Alex CWhat? It’s so okay, so all these brands, the companies that have departments on a customer lifecycle and they have like, kind of like the loyalty specialist and like all these different things, what should they be doing them? Okay. Just to say, for example, if they’re listening right now, right then I’m like, God, what am I doing? I’ve picked the wrong job.

31:00Alex CI just had bar and shop again and they said it again. Is there things they can do to like stop all this fluff that makes no difference in like how they’re saying, you know, hey, here’s my budget and this guy spend it on ads, for rich instead. Do you know what I mean? Like, is there anything that can be done?

31:17Byron SharpUnfortunately, it’s really hard to get out of a loyalty program, right? It’s because there’s this psychological effect consumers do if they’ve got points or something, they’re theirs. And if you try to take them off them, they get they.

31:30Alex COkay.

31:31Byron SharpEven if they’re not using them. So, that is one of the problem. So I mean, the first thing you do is going to how how do I reduce the cost of this program? And ideally, how do I stop giving too much away to the people who are already my heavy loyalists? Right. So it’s a bit like.

31:48Alex CYou can save money on the incentives. Yeah, that’s a big one.

31:53Byron SharpMy local supermarket that they introduced like the loyalty program, you know, and I thought, this is nuts, right. You’ve got a this is a supermarket in a had a catchment area where there were no other supermarkets. I was thinking you’ve already got the people. So but yeah, I’m going to join. Right. And, Oh it took them less than a year and they started winding back the, you know, the value of the points.

32:16Byron SharpI think they suddenly realized, all right, nothing happened to sales. And we just given a, a discount to everyone. Oh, wow. And so suddenly the points expired at the end of the year. And also so they were winding back the cost and that’s,

32:30Alex CYeah. Yeah. No idea. But they’re also now they’re causing a bit of, of frustration with the brand because I didn’t have to introduce it. Now they’re taking it away and I never want to do it, but then take it away from me.

32:41Byron SharpYeah. Kind of thing, you know. Exactly. But they did it in a way that was quite quiet, you know, reducing the value of the points. Most people then, you know, they won’t even say, you know, yes, I yeah, let me give you a different that. But but there’s a, there is something else to do. Not think in the same way that you think about growing a brand.

32:57Byron SharpDo you think it was a how do I, how how can I make this loyalty program recruit people who are not already loyalists? So take away the most stupid. There was a department store here in Adelaide that launched Goldsborough in a head buy. You had to pay if you had to spend, like, an a month, $1,500 to be able to join the loyalty program.

33:20Byron SharpSo the only people who were joining were, you know, heavy buyers or someone bought a a TV or a lounge or something that month that’s utterly stupid. Like, you want to make the barrier to joining, very low so that it reaches, you know, you what you want and very easy. So an occasional buyer is never really shocked that you’re still before they mostly shop.

33:46Byron SharpThat’s in other department stores, but they just happened to come in today. You want to grab them, make it super easy. Get them under the laws of our get their email address, and then you’ve got a chance because that’s a valuable customer to you, not the customer who shops at you every month anyway.

34:01Alex CUnderstand. So you going for loyalty program for the first time buyers who aren’t the loyal ones yet because you want them to become more loyal. But again, yeah, there’s a loyalty program. Probably not. So if you’re going to do it like what you just said before.

34:13Byron SharpWell, I mean, yeah, ideally ideally they’re going to. Yeah I was in New York recently and I found this lovely, very cool, sort of Australian style, coffee shop and, and it was quite new. And I said to the owner here, look, I’m a marketing professor, so I give you I’ll give you some advice, right?

34:29Byron SharpAnd partly just like, you know, make sure it’s really easy for people to see on the street that there’s a coffee shop here. But the other thing is, I said, don’t, don’t, don’t start a loyalty program because coffee shops, they the profitability is about a few hours in the day, the busy time. And, you know, this was a cool, funky coffee shop.

34:51Byron SharpYou could sit down with the computer and things like that. But the reality is, the money they make is the people who come and quickly get a coffee and leave. Yeah. And so you don’t want to do anything that slows those people down. You don’t want people fumbling for their loyalty card. And can I if I need a stamp or something.

35:07Byron SharpAnd you do not want that.

35:09Alex CThat was going to be my other example. It’s funny that, like how you went there. I mean, obviously you’ve done lots of interviews this like this thing to say, you know, what’s coming next. But but, but okay, so the coffee is a good example, right? Because when you like your barista, you don’t care if it costs an extra $0.20.

35:26Alex CYou don’t care if the 10th coffee’s free. It’s just extra niceness. But I’m going to come to you anyway. And if you make me want bad coffee, maybe I’ll let you have two. I’m done. I don’t care how. How many stamps I’ve got. Right. So it’s like, that’s the psychology.

35:39Byron SharpThat’s also for the door for a store. You can almost draw a loyalty circle. You know who’s our most loyal customers? Well, the most loyal, you know, the people in the office upstairs and have, you know, but at least loyal are the ones five blocks away. Because I have to walk a long way here that they pass all the coffee shops on the way.

36:00Alex CThat’s amazing. I sense that’s so, like, you know what’s interesting about this conversation, which I really like. It’s one of those counterintuitive things that when you hear it, it’s obvious. But no one ever thought it or said it or did the research about it. Yeah. And so what you’re just saying obviously makes sense.

36:16Byron SharpYeah.

36:16Alex CBut you had to go and do the research to find out the thing that actually makes sense, because we’re all lying to ourselves about something that we think is true, but it’s actually not true.

36:26Byron SharpYeah. It’s like, you know, I mean, was it Galileo or there were others, you know, who said, you know, actually, we made Nike, all these recordings of, you know, planets and, you know, stars will stars and things, you know, movements and day, length of day. This all fits with the idea that the if the earth is going around the sun, okay, not the sun going around the earth.

36:48Byron SharpThat’s it. Actually, people didn’t like that, right? I mean, that was the funniest thing. Yeah. Unfortunately, he had some friends, so he only got house arrest, not burned at the stake, but but of course, afterwards people go, oh, yeah. Of course.

37:07Alex CYeah. Okay. That’s a good. Wow. I think we’re getting faster at going, course we were wrong. I think in the past, maybe it was a bit more of a strong dogma going on, you know? Yeah.

37:17Byron SharpYeah, I think you’re right. So a lot of people say to me, you know, really, you know, how brands guy who’s been having an impact on the marketing world for ten years now, and how come everything hasn’t changed? I might, I think that’s we’ve actually made pretty good progress, right? Yeah. In fact, I joke usually, you know, it took doctors 100 years to start washing their hands.

37:41Alex CWell, see, you wrote this book, like, 15 years ago, right? And like, I think and I’ve been in marketing for much longer than that. I don’t think so. How many years? But let’s say, it’s been a while. It seemed to be making the circles around e-commerce the last few years. Again, it’s like kind of almost had a resurgence.

37:57Alex CDo you know why? Like.

38:00Byron SharpGood marketing by the Arenberg based institute? No. No, I don’t know. What?

38:06Alex CMental availability and physical availability.

38:08Byron SharpYeah. It is probably actually about that, that mass reach. But I will say it was a surprise to me that, when the book came out, because the book is has lots of examples like Coca-Cola and things. So I deliberately chose, you know, brands that readers would know about, but yeah, a lot of people in the, in the e-commerce and sort of, and database marketing world got it even maybe before some of the.

38:36Byron SharpSome of it was. So I’m not sure what that is. The I mean, all of this is not reaching a lot of them, but those that did, they got it. And maybe it’s because they lived more in a more data world. And so they could read it and go, let’s have a look. Oh. Oh my. He’s right.

38:55Byron SharpOkay. Yeah.

38:56Alex CWell, it’s interesting, I think as well about your, concepts and thinking and studies and and all the evidence, is that in digital marketing for e-commerce, there’s this concept of top of funnel and middle of funnel and kind of bottom of funnel where like at the top of the funnel is like kind of mass market. And then it’s kind of as people start to engage with you, they go to the middle, and the bottom is where you convert them.

39:17Alex CThat died many, many, many years ago. But that was how people thought about it. But I think how meta structures. Oh.

39:26Byron SharpI’m not sure what what what what what was the middle of the funnel.

39:29Alex CWas, I don’t know, the middle of the funnel is like, I haven’t heard of you, but now I’ve heard of you. I’m considering you.

39:34Byron SharpCall a funnel.

39:35Alex CIs like, I’m ready to buy something. Who can I buy it from? Kind of.

39:38Byron SharpYeah, okay. Which is which? As I said, that’s the physical availability time, right? That’s the catching people that go I, I need I bought a new house that’s got a lawn. I need a lawn mower. Yeah, right.

39:48Alex CSo that’s that, that’s Google ads. Let’s call that kind of Google ads place where everyone thinks that they’re a marketer. But all they’re doing is putting up an ad.

39:56Byron SharpThat says lawnmowers 20% off or yeah.

39:58Alex CThat’s it. And that doesn’t get your loyalty. Right. So this is where the Google ads I know.

40:02Byron SharpBut but it but it’s still important right. You’re trying to catch the people who, you know, not for 99.9% of your life, you’re not interested in lawnmowers.

40:12Alex CYeah, okay. That’s a good point. I think this is part of the. You just want more customers.

40:16Byron SharpYou want you got to be you got to be there when when people go into that cycle. But it helps enormously if you’ve built some mental availability. So someone sees the Oklahoma ad and they go, oh yeah, I know that brand. Every salesperson in the world knows if they’re talking to someone and, you know, electronics store or something.

40:37Byron SharpAnd I introduce something and someone says, oh, yeah, I’ve heard of that. That’s a buying signals. Yeah, yeah. We don’t we don’t lie. I mean, it’s if I, if I say like, I know you need a new microphone for your podcast, this is this, this brand you’ve heard of. And then this is totally unknown. One.

40:55Alex CGot it.

40:56Byron SharpIt’s just not you got to be convinced by that unknown one.

41:00Alex CSo what’s interesting for marketers is that especially for digital marketers anyway, so that’s what I’ll speak about. Because that’s my experience is, it’s so much easier just to market a big brand. Everything just works better, or the ads work better, like on my landing pages work. But, yeah, meta ads. I think I’m like a god because, like, look at my campaigns, right?

41:22Alex CAnd then you get a brand that, like, like is like a startup, and I’ve never heard of it before. Everything is difficult. Nothing seems to work. Right?

41:30Byron SharpYeah. And so because because you’re primarily pulling, purchase availability levers, right. You’re, primarily doing stuff that’s going to catch the people who, who are buying this week, and that’s like getting some shelf space in a store. And that’s really hard to convert that to sales. If if I’d walked past it doesn’t know who you are. So what do you say when you say a big brand?

41:57Byron SharpYou mean, brand with mental?

41:58Alex CA brand that we mean brand.

42:00Byron SharpIt’s not mental availability. And you give me the task of rolling out a bit more physical availability. Wow, that stuff gets a great return, right?

42:08Alex CI get it. So, Okay, like, I like moments. The. So cool. And I’m getting some right now, but it’s like the digital marketers always would judge the brand marketers. Right. But then they would love when there was a brand that they could just work with because it made everything easier. So there’s this weird batch out like.

42:28Byron SharpYeah, it is.

42:29Alex CStuck to me, right?

42:30Byron SharpWith yeah, yeah.

42:31Alex CThe brand marketers I respect the other digital marketer marketers between the brand marketers, but really because one’s got, well, they’re both kind of doing it both.

42:38Byron SharpRight. It’s sort of the old, sales are not, you know, in a, in a, a Procter Gamble or something. It’s the whole sales team versus the marketing thing. Right. You know.

42:47Alex CWhat’s interesting?

42:48Byron SharpI think they say when we do everything we don’t, you know, don’t get those. But it’s kind of made it much easier knocking on the door of a store if you’ve got like, and I’ve heard of your brand.

43:01Alex CI think maybe one of the reasons that your book, maybe it’s not just to do the rounds again, is the rules in meta change. And said before, top of the funnel, criminal funnel and cloud part of the funnel, you’d have them as separate campaigns, but then kind of meta changed how they target people and their ads. And maybe because I read your book too, right.

43:18Alex CBut they essentially have everything in kind of one campaign. So there’s kind of one campaign has the rich as a retargeting as the loyalty part. It’s all in the one campaign.

43:29Byron SharpOkay. So there’s a there’s.

43:30Alex CYour book now, you know, trying.

43:31Byron SharpTo do mental availability and physical availability.

43:34Alex CYeah. Yeah. And I think maybe that has been a part of it because especially for ecommerce brands, these days, the brand and the performance is one and the same. Like you can’t just say, hey, advertising, you know, so it’s a lot more for 20% off. Yeah, you can, but it doesn’t really work. So now I have to do like some videos that show somebody using an ad to do.

43:54Alex CYeah, yeah. The after testimonials I have to give them.

43:56Byron SharpThe, the, the debate brand or performance. You can recast as saying what you’re really saying is the debate between mental availability or physical availability. And if you stop and think about it, that’s incredibly stupid, right? Because you like, should I do mental well-being? So I do physical, like you got to have both. You got to have both.

44:16Byron SharpOh.

44:16Alex CYeah. At the same time. At the same time.

44:20Byron SharpWell, no. You okay? No. You don’t actually, you you need your physical availability always on that.

44:28Alex COf course you have to be able to buy it. Yeah, yeah. To show. Yeah, yeah.

44:32Byron SharpNow you should have your advertising actually spread out all the time. So it’s sort of the same. But if you, if you are worried about going brokers, that might not actually be a, you know, the mental availability is an investment that’s going to keep paying off for decades. But if you think you’re going to be broke in three months time, you know, then yeah, maybe, you know, you can you can turn it off for a while.

44:59Byron SharpThat’s that’s the only difference. But if you turn up your physical availability, your sales just stop.

45:04Alex CYeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That’s a really, really, really good point. And then.

45:08Byron SharpBut it is weird though, because people do. People still do physical availability like campaigns where they will, you know, do a burst of, you know, spending on Amazon for a display or something and then stopping, you know what? What that that’s like shutting the doors of the store. Why would why are you shutting the doors? It’s not advertising.

45:33Byron SharpAdvertising. You can do that. I mean, you shouldn’t, but you can because it works through memory and the memories keep going. But if you shut the doors of the store, they shut themselves against someone else.

45:45Alex CSo when you make something harder to buy by, by involving an option, a payment option or a platform option, but you’re just making it less available. So the goal, so just for the branded listening, if you’re, brand is accessible in more places. Yeah, it’s increasing the physical availability if you accept kind of more, forms of payment, that increases the physical, the physical availability.

46:10Alex CBut if.

46:11Byron SharpYou like, you’d love to have mental availability going along with that, because that is just going to make that stuff for it better.

46:17Alex CBut and.

46:18Byron SharpAnd you should be daily tweaking and you can do this. This is like, this is I think why the people in the, in the eco digital world that understand that they’re doing like, you know, about this all the time. They’re saying, you know, like so yeah, Google says, you know, buy this display ad and you go, well, I’ll, I’ll try it.

46:34Byron SharpAnd, you know, because it’s physical availability, it’ll show up in sales immediately or not. And if it’s not, then I’m stopping doing it. It’s exactly the same way. I’m, you know, I’m sure that pretty much all if you own a coffee shop, you you start off by having very long hours, probably because you make it okay, but then you start to realize we don’t get, you know, like after 5:00, we don’t get any business.

46:57Byron SharpIn fact, we hardly any business between 4 and 5. All right, well, we can close then between 4 and 5. And you start tweaking and learning what matters and what doesn’t matter so much.

47:10Alex CIn that example, though, would it have been better to keep it open? Because now there’s more, of course. But like the.

47:16Byron SharpAbility, of course, but it costs.

47:18Alex CMoney return, right?

47:19Byron SharpIt’s gonna cost you money.

47:20Alex CAnd you, you’re right. How much you making back of it? Yeah.

47:23Byron SharpYeah. I mean, it’s still, you know, some it’s interesting stores that that more likely to go for 24 hours are the ones that have got fantastic mental availability. Right. They’re big brands and McDonald’s and things. But others go, not it’s 24 hours. We can’t justify the, the costs.

47:44Alex CBut there’s a max Brenner. I believe if they’re set up for for 24 hours, I’d have a line for 24 hours. Like, they seem to like all the chocolate and the sugar like, and the yo cheese and stuff. I they must have a lot of kind of mental availability because they’re always full no matter the spot, like. And they’ll open up and they’re full straight away.

48:03Alex CThat’s mental availability. Right. And now they made it more accessible with the physical availability when they have a new store. Is that like an example of just like.

48:11Byron SharpI, I think it’s I’m noticing a lot of yo, like, stores around me that, they’re not very busy.

48:19Alex COh, okay. Cool. I must live in an area where everyone is sugar. And they love it. Okay. This is what a great conversation for the ecommerce brands listening and for all brands listening. Actually, it’s that combination of not thinking of performance versus brand. It’s mental availability.

48:37Byron SharpBut because I’m a little bit of, well, yeah, can we get rid of all these terms that are the, the non marketers? I mean even marketers get confused as us marketers. Hi. But the non markets had no idea what we’re talking about. In a so a lot of you know funnels and ladders and and I didn’t I just a performance of brand and activation.

49:01Byron SharpBut it’s not activating you know I mean it’s just I guess you know most of the time what you’re really talking about is, is, is catching the people who are about to buy. That’s how purchase availability and mental availability, which is usually hitting people who actually aren’t buying it all now, but they’re going to someday. And if we build that, it’s going to make the other one work, work really well.

49:26Byron SharpAnd if you can just focus on that, it’s it’s also, much easier to sell to finance people you’re talking about to market based assets that are valuable and. Any marketer should be able to communicate that. Right. We’re supposed to be quite good at positioning. Let’s say. Do you think, you know, like how many classrooms, if Coca-Cola, all their factories burned down, do you think it would destroy the company?

49:55Byron SharpValue much. Let’s know, what is the company value? Well, it’s the mental availability and the distribution. It will arrive. It’s the mental and physical availability. So my job is to nurture those assets for the company that that other the CEO can gets that right.

50:14Alex CYou’re not saying that you shouldn’t track performance of each of the channels. Right. Because obviously there’s spending money and there has to be some kind of a return. But if I’m going for mental availability, am I still tracking it the same way that I’ve always no.

50:28Byron SharpNo no no no no no no no. You know. Yeah. That’s a very good physical availability. You can see it in, you know, as you move it around today actual job and today’s sales. Yeah. Obviously physical mental availability. Not at all. In fact most of the mental availability is, was built, you know, five, ten years or, you know, like if you’re Coca-Cola.

50:49Byron SharpOh my God, it was built, you know, 100 years ago, 100 years there. So you have to use other metrics to, to, to evaluate. Am I doing a good job right now?

51:00Alex CWhat do you suggest to the metrics? The few metrics or the key ones to start for? I just start with.

51:07Byron SharpI can I bet I can tell you from the MBBS Institute, right. We focus on a few simple metrics of mental availability, which are about things like how many people in the media are mentioning us, which we contract with. You can track that with like Google, right?

51:22Alex CYeah, of course you can.

51:23Byron SharpYes. Yeah. So and you can think of hundreds of other metrics that would be related to that. But the thing is, they’re all related to that. So why don’t we just track that one. Right. So how many times the people mentioning us in the media, and, and do.

51:39Alex CYou correlate those numbers with the physical availability numbers kind of thing. Like is that something is there a way because like at some point you’re like, well, I’ll just buy all the ads everywhere and I can’t, right? Because I’m funny because I’m not clear at that point. So then as a brand, am I just going to where there’s the best chance of getting the most reach the smartest way and then stack on top of that?

52:00Byron SharpYes, we I mean, we we do other things like LinkedIn, advertising and stuff. And yeah, we look at the reach metrics because reach is not optional. Yeah.

52:10Alex CI’m going to totally doesn’t.

52:12Byron SharpReally need.

52:12Alex CA lot of matter. I’ve never mentioned before because I’m like Rich who wants rates like I want conversions. But that’s different, right? So in meta you actually should have some campaigns just for rage because it’s going to get in front of.

52:25Byron SharpYeah it depends. It depends obviously where your brand is. The biggest mobile is for for us we have how Brands Go Live, which is a executive development program. Hardly anyone in the world. It’s probably about 10 million senior executives in the world who will one day, you know, do a program like this either with us or, you know, we compete with the Harvards and stuff.

52:47Byron SharpAnd so, you know, most of them don’t 99.9% don’t know we offer this. And, and, and 99.9% aren’t in the market today. I mean, they’re probably going to do 1 in 7 years time. So we’ve got to build mental availability. And so which box do we take on the LinkedIn thing? We take rates. Right. That’s all. We just reach it as soon as we stop paying for clicks or something.

53:17Byron SharpAnd the cost of the reach goes skyrocketing up.

53:21Alex CAnd isn’t it.

53:24Byron SharpAnd we carefully control where that reaches going out because if if you just leave it to, the algorithms, then suddenly vast amounts of your money pour into, you know, Azerbaijan or something. Yeah, yeah.

53:39Alex CNo way of saying that to, Wait, so when you’re targeting. Okay, let’s just, on that one, are you just going to the country level? Are you going to stay?

53:47Byron SharpYeah, we.

53:48Alex CKnow it is. Country levels enough.

53:50Byron SharpCountry level sometimes city and things. But that’s right. You just stop that bleed. Yeah. Understand it. But we’re not really trying to you know, we we know that the only graphic. So of all the people that come on however this guy probably the only common demographic is I have about 20 years marketing experience. So you’d go, right. Well, we should target people who, you know, that same year only have 20 years marketing experience.

54:14Byron SharpBut but then you go, but wait on. People have had ten, 15 years experience. I going to have 20. So you’d want those as well. Right. So you need to reach is not optional.

54:27Alex CFor your specific situation, which is similar just to ours. Right. Because it’s like, it’s a bit of basing this for our off acquisition of our clients. Does education fit in? That is that part of.

54:38Byron SharpYeah. Yeah.

54:40Alex COr is that enough physical. Is that hybrid between the two like like if you well.

54:44Byron SharpIf someone if someone makes an inquiry then you know. But no but education’s yeah. Really important and B2B B2B is really particularly tough because the we just don’t have you know I’m talk about LinkedIn LinkedIn’s great you need you think but even it reach capacity to deliver reaches very limited because most people go on LinkedIn maybe probably the typical LinkedIn person link to you don’t say that’s but, you know, probably logs in about five times in their career.

55:19Alex CCourse because that’s the long tail of the.

55:23Byron SharpDistribution. Yeah. Most executives ago. Yeah. I’ve got a LinkedIn account. Yeah. And and when did you last got LinkedIn or when I set up the account.

55:31Alex CAll right. Got it. Got it.

55:33Byron SharpYeah. 0I0 no I went in because I got a promotion. So I went into LinkedIn and updated my CV. Okay. That’s right. And then you got other people who are on every single day. They’re so easy to reach. It’s so easy.

55:47Alex CBar. And this has been fantastic. I’ve got so many more questions. But, for everyone else who’s listening, been by the book and and can you just talk through that executive kind of program? Because, yeah, we have a lot of, experience marketers in our database and kind of listen to this. And so maybe there’s some of, those old, a kind of more experienced people.

56:07Alex CSo how does that work? And yes, how did.

56:09Byron SharpYeah, it’s a 3 to 4 day program. It runs in Singapore and Bordeaux in Boston next year, you know, every year. But in those locations, it is it’s a premium. You know, event, where you get to, you know, like, you actually can spend days with me and Jenny Romanek and Justin Cohen and others. So you get to network with other people.

56:39Byron SharpBut, you know, you can’t ask a book questions. You can’t like this that forces you to do exercises on, you know, your brand and others. And it’s, I mean, people love it.

56:55Alex CIt’s. Yeah. So what is somebody going to get from attending? Yes. I say, for example, so they’ve heard this podcast and they’re like, oh my God, this guy’s amazing. I haven’t thought about that. My whole budgets are all messed up. Now I have to change everything. Right? So.

57:06Byron SharpOh yeah, well, you go on. Okay. So you could say it’s sort of like it’s sort of like, you know, sort of like consulting on the, on the thing, but, I would say that because we have a lot of even CEOs who come and, I think the common thing is, they want to get to a level in the knowledge where they can, inspire others, where they can stand up and make a speech about this is the way we’re going as a company.

57:30Byron SharpThis is the evidence, and they know how to do it. Right. So, you know, that is, you know, if you make a kid, you know, it’s like, you know, you’re learning something and there’s learning it to pass the exam and then forget you because learning it so that you’re more sort of familiar with it. But learning it to a level where you can explain it and teach it to others.

57:50Byron SharpOh, that’s, that’s, that’s a, that’s a high level of understanding and, that’s the magic, I think, of how brands go live. It gets people up to sort of that sort of level.

58:02Alex CAnd if you’ve heard things in this podcast that have been an eye opening in terms of how you think about your marketing budgets or your teams and so on, he then you should absolutely attend this event. Yeah.

58:15Byron SharpIt’s great fun to, you know, and,

58:17Alex CAnd the great locations. I was like, I’m like is where he likes to go on holidays. That’s what I thought. But I was like, that’s, that’s it’s but that’s great. And then I also highly recommend the book and I’ll put the link in, the show notes about how brands grow. It’s just like it’s expanding on all of these points.

58:33Alex CIt’s excellent. And it just gets you thinking the different way in that we stopped thinking about what we thought was the case, which is not absolutely the case. And then we start thinking like this instead. And there’s a lot more examples and details and thinking. And so it’s highly recommended for every ecommerce brand for sure. But but then for every other brand, it’s just stuck saying why I never get more customers.

58:53Alex CI’ve got the best service. I’ve got the best product. What’s the problem? Yeah, well, everything that we spoke about.

58:58Byron SharpHow come I’m doing all these great things that get a great ROI and we’re still not growing?

59:02Alex CYeah, yeah, yeah. So but thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Is there anywhere that anyone got? So, for example, if somebody kind of wants to, inquire about,

59:13Byron SharpGo, go to their request, go to the MBBS, website if you just think you just Google Arabic Pass.

59:20Alex CI’ll put it in the.

59:20Byron SharpChat. Yeah, yeah.

59:22Alex CIt’s, Yeah, I’ll put in the show notes. Byron, thank you so much. Thank you. I do a lot of these, and it’s not often that I get so many moments in, in an interview, especially after all the research I’ve done with you, all the research. So thank you so much. I mean, this has been great.

59:36Alex CAnd I’m sure this is going to be really helpful for our audience as well. So so thank you so much today.

59:40Byron SharpThank you.

59:40Alex CBye bye. Thanks for listening to the Growth Manifesto podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please give us a five star rating on iTunes. For more episodes, please visit Growth manifesto.com/podcast. And if you need help driving growth for your company, please get in touch with us at Web profits.io.