How the Winklevoss twins are building a crypto empire

00:00you know you may think i have bitcoin but i only have bitcoin as much as i have time on this earth um and any possession every anything you have or own or done like it really means you just have time yeah so we're all investors in time is more precious than bitcoin you know finite we don't know how much we have um there's not that much of it so we have to use it wisely and some people invest it incredibly wisely they understand the game they're playing and you know they're uh you have folks like elon musk

00:32he jeff bezos he doesn't have more time than me isn't more time than you but you know he's using it and he's finding leverage and he's getting this output and it doesn't always have to be like oh successful company or whatever you can create tremendous output with learning and growth and reading just got to build those leverages today we're talking with tyler winklevoss co-founder and ceo of gemiini principal and investor at winklevoss

01:05capital he's an olympic grower and he is one of the early investors in bitcoin today we'll be talking about bitcoin uh where it started and where it's going the growth of the gemini cryptocurrency exchange and the investment strategy and approach of winklevoss capital and just before we get started make sure to go ahead and hit that subscribe button so you get the latest episodes as soon as they're released now let's get into it welcome tyler well thanks for having me alex pleasure mate pleasure let's get straight into it first part is on the early days of bitcoin so i read that back in 2013

01:38you and your brother own one percent of all the bitcoin in circulation is that true um you know what you read um it might be true yeah well if that was true that means that you bought them at under ten dollars a bitcoin and uh it's gone quite a lot higher since that time i remember this is actually like in the early 2000s it was like 70 cents and i heard about it and it had crashed and it had come back up again but it started pretty early on but what did you see

02:11in bitcoin that others i had not until you know just recently that is a great question so what we saw or what we learned when we saw it we started digging deeper was that bitcoin was the first money that was ever purpose built for the internet and so a lot of our money like credit cards ach even paypal has this illusion that your money's working on the internet but really it's almost like i'd call it internet enabled banking

02:44it's still running on the old banking rails that were set up and built by bankers um in in as far back as the 70s before the internet even existed so people have tried to cobble payments and money onto the internet through paypal and in other applications but no one had really built a uh internet native money and so that's what bitcoin is ultimately it's the world's first internet native money it works like your email

03:16and it has characteristics that are very similar to gold so that's why we call it uh you know internet gold or gold 2.0 so the idea of like this gold that's built for the internet we thought was a pretty big idea so because this there's a lot of conversations around um cryptocurrency especially like around um the bitcoin cryptocurrency um is it a currency or is it a commodity ah um that is a great question and that is

03:47one of the questions um so in in the united states uh its legal designation is a commodity um so there is a cftc enforcement order called the coin flip order in 2015 that designated a commodity under the commodity and exchange act and i believe a district judge a federal judge in new york confirm that ruling so in the u.s it's a commodity like gold or other uh commodity assets

04:20but that doesn't mean it can't be used as a currency like gold was used as a currency um they're technically i guess the term is commodity money um until the the advent of a fiat currency so you can use these things um as a currency as a medium of exchange um there's generally three properties of money there's medium of exchange unit of count store value and you don't have to function as all three of those to be money gold has historically functioned as all

04:56of those but today it really sits in vaults much of it involves under the thames river and it plays a store of value role and we see bitcoin as an emergent store of value it's gold 2.0 so it could disrupt gold um so it could appreciate a lot more from here uh bitcoin's market cap is somewhere in the 300 billions gold is 9 trillion if bitcoin disrupts gold its market cap has to be worth 9 trillion that puts a price of 500 000 of bitcoin today

05:30so even if bitcoin only plays a store of value role for money um and does a better job than gold it's still like a huge um it's a huge deal so i'm sure back in the day and i don't know how long ago when people first picked up a piece of stone and said this is worth x amount of dollars people thought it's just a rock right it feels like that's similar to bitcoin people don't understand how they can be value linked to this kind of internet money yeah so how would you explain it to people that like well

06:04it's not gold you know like it doesn't have value or it's not a diamond or it's not cash but even though that they are just ideas how would you explain like why bitcoin i guess like is such a good store of value yeah i'd probably throw the question back right um i hope that's not a cop out but let me know um uh everybody agrees that gold is valuable i mean it's in our movies it's in game of thrones it had you know i don't think i don't think you could talk to anyone on the

06:36street and they'd be like i don't understand what's gold all about like i wouldn't want gold um and so if that's if if we all agree on that then the question is why do we all agree on that and you have to look at so you go to the properties and i had the same question too when i kind of came to bitcoin and gold and trying to value bitcoin what are the properties that make gold gold um it's scarce there's not a lot of it um it's somewhat portable you can carry it around it's somewhat divisible you can smelt it um

07:08it's durable it can sit on a shelf or in a vault forever you know it's not going to degrade like like a vegetable um you can cut it you know you can you can divide it um so it makes it makes good money right and so a good thought exercise is to put bitcoin up against gold and each of those characteristics that make that we all think make gold gold so in terms of its supply um bitcoin's actually fixed there will only be 21 million the supply of gold is actually unknown

07:42it's scarce but it's increasing when people find more gold and that can be technological breakthroughs that can be an increased demand for gold um so so gold is found in mind and actually the the about the the above ground supply of gold has increased 60 since the 50s there's still not a lot of it but it's slowly getting bigger bitcoins actually fixed um gold bar is kind of portable but at bitcoin you can send around like an email um

08:15you can carry a bitcoin wallet in your head in your pocket on a piece of paper through borders so it's very very easy to transport you can divide a bitcoin into 100 million pieces this is a common misconception people think oh well bitcoins now at you know eighteen thousand dollars of bitcoin i can't afford that well you can come to the exchange we built called gemini and you can buy ten dollars of bitcoin 100 500 you can buy a full bitcoin you can buy millions of dollars of bitcoin so

08:48um so like when you go down the line bitcoin either matches gold or it's superior and so the reason gold has value is because we all think it does it's supply and demand and if people do that analysis on on bitcoin and realize that it's actually better at being gold than gold um people can buy into it just like you know people decided that picasso was you know a rare special thing and there's not many more there's no

09:19more going to be made right um so it's it's kind of like art and gold it's supply and demand but it's all based on what we decide and if people wake up tomorrow and say you know what i just don't think bitcoins you know does it for me then then it you know won't be worth anything but if people wake up and say bitcoin's better than gold then there's a chance that it disrupts gold and gold's really not that special yeah and i think um i think for the majority of people because they can go to the shop and they can purchase

09:50a gold like necklace or something like that they can see that value whereas a bitcoin is an idea right yeah but also i think like yeah the gold is an idea too but it's just something which you can purchase at a shop and you can give us a present and it's got this intrinsic value that is advertised and so on whereas like bitcoin is just pure value yeah i mean so i don't know if you read the book sapiens but it does a good it's pretty popular book um it's a good quick read um it does a great job of talking about

10:24like these fictions that that man creates and humans are basically we're effectively storytelling monkeys and we're status seeking storytelling monkeys um but we can spin up these stories we can bend up spin up these fictions like um a border like crossing uh the the mexico american border um no animal knows they're crossing that border but as a human you're like oh there's the border patrol get your passport out it's a big deal we're like now in mexico now coming back in the u.s or

10:58we're in a different state we've all made this up it's it's a collective um hallucination and money is is is one of these other great imagined fictions that man woman uh humans have created for for commerce so um you're absolutely right that it is these are ideas there's so much fiction in it but like that's what allows us that's what makes us humans you know and different than other animals is that we can come together and coordinate around

11:31these these ideas like patriotism duty you know and and start wars over it and increase and religion and it's like just an idea you can't point or touch so i'm always fascinated with how like people are like but it's not real i can't touch it like most of the things in your life including your dollars you can't touch and they're not that real but you know these days yeah actually these days where we can't have cash anymore because of covert

12:04rightly so now like it's all just like on the internet like it's all just in the ether you know yeah and it's it's being printed so much so that's been a huge driver for bitcoin because people are like wait there's got to be scarcity and money um and the money supply of dollars it's just so it's a simple like you know fifth it's not even like um you know simple arithmetic like third grade first grade kind of stuff like the supply is getting bigger my share of that supply is staying the same

12:36but as a percentage overall it's becoming much smaller um i've put my whole life into this system and it's degrading it's appreciating um so i'm gonna put my blood sweat and tears over in some in a hard sound money like gold or bitcoin because it's just not getting to base and there's no inflation over there so 2020 has been the year of chaos uncertainty money printing stimulus helicopter money um this idea that literally governments are dropping money

13:08out of the sky people are getting their checks um there's probably more of that on the way and it's literally the federal reserve waves the magic wand and everybody gets money and i think even people haven't thought about this or like scratching their head a little bit and saying like how does that work like is this really real and i think that's driven a lot of people into crypto so and just quickly so why is the bitcoin limited at 21 million that is just what the creator that's the rules of the game that was set up

13:43rules can't change they could but you'd have to get more than half of the network to to vote on it and um nobody's going to do that because then they would be debasing themselves so like me personally i'm a hodler i hold a lot of bitcoin why would i want to own less of a percentage of the pie and so there's very strong economic incentives um to i think incentives are like i don't know who said this was it einstein or buffett or

14:15someone um that they're like the eighth wonder of the world right and the incentives are lined for for people to play nice and play good um but also to keep it a fixed supply um just like if you owned a warhol an indie world you know painting or some sort of piece you wouldn't want to like be able to agree with people um to all of a sudden like bring them back from the dead and that would be actually very cool we'd all agree with that but like you can't make any more yeah you can be here but like you can't

14:48make any more like um you know fuchsia mouse because i have one of however many 10 and i don't want 100 because then you know my investment goes you know down the toilet and so this year has seen a pretty big appreciation for bitcoin and i think as that today it's it's almost at 20 000 again like around like 19 something but there's less hype around it at the moment as it was back in 2017-18 but why do you think it's having such a big run right now

15:20so i think the drivers are what i said before i think it's all the money printing i think it's the oncoming inflation um but the the cast of characters who are really taking up large positions are very different um you have legendary investors so paul tutor jones is a legendary hedge fund investor of the last quarter century you have stan druck and miller um you have other hedge funders who are taking huge positions and coming out and talking about it but unlike you know business channels like they don't

15:54you know it's not like super mainstream and and then and they're in there they believe in the gold 2.0 story they're like hey paul palter jones said this and he sent out a really cool investment letter newsletter um that in the 70s in the us we had a lot of inflation and one of his famous trades early on was was gold um you know it would have been bitcoin but we hadn't invented bitcoin so today um he sees the same qualities in bitcoin so he's putting as well in bitcoin so there's a lot of legendary investors who

16:26who you know you can't maybe you can knock us like hey were the facebook guys from the movie like what do they know um you know they have with bitcoin but that's not convincing me um but when you start bringing in like paul tudor jones these investors who have made tremendous value for themselves and their investors and this is what they do and they're saying this is a good investment that's a little harder to kind of like turn your nose at or deny secondly uh and just to wrap that up quickly is there are publicly traded companies like microstrategy

17:00um michael saylor is the ceo founder of that company and square jack doris square who have put some of their cash on their balance sheet some of their treasury money into bitcoin for the same reasons that these investors are because they're worried that their cash is turning into trash they want to save um their value so you've got institutional investors you've got publicly traded companies starting to buy bitcoin and it's almost quietly because it's not a fomo crowd it's not like this email it's not like rappers um and celebrities tweeting about it like

17:332017 yeah it's like the smartest people in the room who are kind of like uh discreet and quiet and they're taking these bigger positions rather than the noisy people in the room with much smaller pockets so what does that do to bitcoin when the institutional money comes into it how does that change the characteristics of the trends you know because it's been pretty volatile like i would say compared to lots of other commodities and currencies and so on and like investments across the board how does it change now with all this

18:07institutional money in short the more people that buy into it um the more the market cap will increase the value will increase um so and the larger it gets the less volatile it will get but also the less um upside and appreciation will be available to you so people sort of complain about volatility yeah like amazon was a small tech stock like was really volatile right and it was kind of scary but that was you know if you got in early in 2000

18:40versus 2005 10 15 i mean your gains are just that much more so um there's no um reward without risk right so high risk high reward and if you get in early you are rewarded for that and the more early you are if people end up coming in and piling in behind you um you will ride that up um and so if bitcoin's worth 9 trillion it'll be kind of mature the price will be steady but it will not have

19:12what i have predicted is is like a 25 to 30 x from here it just it just won't have that so um when i say bitcoin is a is a store of value um or playing that role what i really mean is that today it's an emergent sort of value it's sort of growing into that and that's where you get the asymmetric return [Music] it's not just preserving wealth but you can actually 25 or 30x your wealth by my math um but over time as more people come in and when you're

19:46the last person to the party you're just not going to have like the secrets out in the the secret is out in the open but like everybody started to build consensus around it um that opportunity just won't be there so but you have to be you have to have strong hands be willing to weather storms and volatility it's not an asset like you want to look at every day um or it's it's money you want to kind of be able to put away for five ten years um and and and that's you know going to be

20:20great but if you wait till it's kind of like safe and boring well like that's that's like not settling the frontier waiting for everyone to get to california and then be like now i'm going to buy property well it's going to be a lot more expensive than it was when you got there before the sheriff was in town before there was like infrastructure before there was a saloon it was fun um now it's kind of boring you know so so i think there's you know but everyone's got to make their own investment decisions obviously so that's bitcoin but there's a thousand other currencies or

20:54there's a thousand other coins or whatever you want to call them so aside from bitcoin is there anything else which you find exciting like in terms of the other cryptos out there um i'd say my number two favorite um and i also have a full disclosure uh material positioning would be ether which is the coin the crypto of the ethereum network um ethereum i don't think bitcoin and ethereum are competing for the same things um bitcoin is your store about the emergence sort of value gold 2.0

21:27ethereum is a decentralized virtual computer think of um like amazon cloud computing that's what ethereum is decentralized and ether allows you to use that computer so ether is almost like a digital oil bitcoin is digital gold um these blockchains have the highest demand for people who want to invest for people who want to for for uh engineers who want to build on them and you can look at the the

21:58demand for the space in each transaction block of the blockchain and their transaction fees are high because uh space is scarce and people want to be in there so you can there's there's metrics that show there's a ton of academic activity and demand happening for both of these cryptos um so i think like when people are saying hey how do i get into crypto what do i do my feeling is like look it always starts with bitcoin but i really think it starts these days i think it's fair to say it starts with

22:31bitcoin ether and some combination of those two you have a lot of your bases covered because ethereum is sort of like if you think of manhattan it's the land you know the substrate what's going on and there's all these projects being built on top of ethereum because it's like a operating system bitcoin is very it's simple it's like moving you know gold from a to b ethereum you can create all these applications and there's this movement called decentralized finance where you can borrow you can lend you can do all this stuff

23:03on ethereum but these are projects built on top of ethereum and if you own the substrate like sort of the layer one of the theory of ethereum you have exposure to what's going on up there without having to pick which of the many many projects is is going to win some people um unless you do it for your full-time job it's going to be a bit hard so i sort of say look own a piece of the race track and as long as the races are running you don't have to pick the winning horse

23:35you will do fine when you get up the stack and you kick the horses it can be higher returns but also it can get pretty ugly because some things just won't work out and most people like i'm commit you know all i do is eat breathe sleep crypto and that's what i'll do for at least the next decade or two or many more um but i appreciate that that's not what everyone does so um the cool thing is that you can own pieces of this network by owning the coins you you couldn't own a piece of the

24:08internet really you'd have to um domain squad like get a domain like pepsi.com and then sell it to pepsi or something but you really couldn't buy a piece of the internet and you'd have to sort of invest in these companies and a lot of them blew up right but like now you can invest in the internet these the internet of money um by just buying these networks and just buying the underlying coin so it's a different paradigm yeah sure and what do you say to um um to

24:39the challenge that there's too much demand for what ethereum can actually handle oh i mean i think i don't think anyone would deny if you're talking about like um it's scaling and it's scaling it yeah yeah i mean i think everyone admits that or like acknowledges that that it's got to get better right because there's so much excitement and it could fall a victim of its own uh success right we have its own success is getting heavy for it um it just passed a really cool

25:12milestone last week where it's going to move into ether 2.0 which is uh i i'm not super close to the details i need to freshen up there but like essentially it will move to a proof of stake and just upgrade in a way where it can scale um more there can be more transactions that can handle more applications because you're absolutely right like if uh if if ethereum doesn't grow at that level some other chain will um so i do think it's very much like ethers

25:47to lose at this point it's got so many network effects everybody if you're gonna build somewhere you start there but um you know we saw even with social networking um friends who had technical difficulties it was kind of hard to log in then myspace came then facebook had its own breakthroughs and then probably my guess is that like facebook um you know you're not going to unseat facebook the way it is if you try and do that they just got enough things right um but interesting there there are new they're sort of like new blockchains and

26:19social media like you have tick tock now and stuff but i sort of uh digress um ether has a plan to improve it needs to improve i think all of these chains do because tech moves so quickly even bitcoin has to keep getting better um and more secure and everything so um as long as the community's like committed to that i think it's i'm an optimist on it so so it's ethereum's to lose which i've seen for the last few years anyway um who would be or which

26:52blockchain would be its biggest threat so i think a blockchain that usually there's this idea in in tech that it has like a new product to unseat the incumbent has to be like 10x better so one thing i've heard is that solidity isn't like is user friendly to engineers who are like not don't have like his highest skills maybe um so creating spinning stuff up in solidity which is the language the programming language of ethereum right now um it's difficult right it's not like impossible or something i don't think

27:26it's like a plus or c sharp or something but it's maybe not as easy as like java or html or something like that right and so if another blockchain comes on with the language that either uses an existing language that everybody knows um or creates something that's super easy where like you and i can open up like a book or two like not even a book read like a chapter and a book and just not even just like go on the internet and build something that's going to be a huge right because um it's so easy now to spin up your

27:59startup on amazon cloud you know it just took away this barriers to entry net friction and then there's there's a movement to or like this idea of interoperability where you can kind of bounce between blockchains and so a chain that's like super easy to build on that can kind of like interact with other blockchains where the switching costs it's like sort of a economic term like it's not that hard to to leave you know ethereum

28:31and everything can kind of migrate um so i might be getting this wrong i gotta i gotta brush up on my but like there are efforts like cosmos polka dot um algorand um these are big names they've been around and i believe all of them and many more are also trying to you know solve the problems that ether 2.0 will probably solve for eth but um you know competition's great and nobody wants to wait around you know everybody wants their shot at greatness so yeah right and so thanks

29:03for answering that question because that's something that that i definitely want to know from someone that's been in the game for as long as you have been um let's jump to gemini um it's a cryptocurrency exchange right so you're fully into crypto like you've got investments in you've actually created an exchange but how did you get the idea for gemiini so yeah we like to joke that we don't have our skin in the game we ever hold bodies in the game um so the the way we got the idea for gemini is

29:37basically kind of how we've gotten any idea which is um we were dissatisfied with the state of play um some of our earliest bitcoin we bought on mount cox and whenever there was like a bit of a bull run back then you it could take a minute to get your order place to buy or to sell um it was like unclear who was running the show it was two frenchmen in tokyo with their cats and just it was like kind of a black box and super scary and not user friendly

30:12just to get over there you had to apostle documents it's something i learned i guess technically um instead of a notary right in the u.s you you go to like the state department and the the federal government like says you know um authenticates your documents you mail them over to japan then you wire your money over to japan and so you're in their legal system if anything happens well i don't speak japanese uh although um many japanese lawyers speak impeccable english

30:44even better than than than u.s citizens um so you know that but but it's it's just foreign you know and you want to keep your dollars or not fdinc insured and um it was just sketchy and so we as investors we looked at investing in other um companies other exchanges but we really couldn't find anyone who we thought was doing it right everyone kind of was like oh i can build a better exchange and i'm gonna do it offshore because i don't want to deal with regulation and all that stuff and we just weren't

31:16quite satisfied with that sort of race to the bottom race offshore we're like i think there should be a u.s exchange for for cryptocurrency um you know we have the new york stock exchange uh new york's been the home of finance for a long time um why can't it also be a home a home um not the only home but a home for this new revolution of finance you know like uh wall street 2.0 and so um we couldn't find something to invest and we at some point we said screw it

31:48we'll just do this ourselves we picked the phone to the regulator in new york um actually we got subpoenaed by them um they they were like what is this bitcoin thing like a lot of people and it's a fair point like you know is this for uh criminals and for bad stuff and we had already talked about this in the press so they subpoenaed us and a lot of other people they're like tell us about this is this like some ponzi scheme or whatever it was a little bit antagonistic to say the least but we went in we educated them we're like it's not a ponzi team there's a fixed amount

32:20there's real merit here i know you read about silk road but it's it's about a lot more than this um and so to their credit they completely turned around on that they held a bitcoin hearing in in uh january of 2014 i think 150 countries people from different countries piped into this hearing which is very you know crazy for a new york state you know regulator hearing um i think it was like 25 30 000 people and um they got on board they're like

32:53shoot this is there's merit here to their credit let's usher this in um and if you want to be legitimate like come apply and we basically do that hearing and like the next day we we um we call them up we're like how can we get licensed we want to bring this to new york and and build an exchange do it the right way with the right security with the right compliance um we'll help you answer your questions um i think it's super important to engage with regulators because um regulation is a spectrum there's

33:26there's very thoughtful regulation that builds healthy markets and helps consumers protect protects them and there's one that are way too wild west like you know mount cox was just like kind of too crazy and there's one that are two you know they sort of stamp out um and they clamp um regulation and you know you could make an argument that the us has been a little bit too far you know um it's been you know it could be a little bit more into the thoughtful you know sandboxy let's run with this thing um but that's our story you know we built

34:01this to solve our own problem to help mainstream crypto and do it in a way that we thought was the right way or a way rather a way that was important to build confidence and trust in the asset class and ultimately attract um the the big money that is starting to come in and how long did it take you from the 14th of uh well sorry uh 2014 the day after um the the hearing in new york to get the license

34:33how long was that process that took um totally blanking but i think it was like a year and a half which was really it was significant amount of time um which at the time we were also building our technology but there was a period of like we were waiting we were like hey we need to get out the door but our ethos was let's ask for permission not forgiveness um and almost like um by doing the right thing they're like oh well you can't really you know do this until we're ready um

35:06and a lot of exchanges sort of went outside of new york and then came in later and um i don't know in the long run i think it's okay i think people respect the fact that we did it that way um we didn't sort of end run new york but it was a year and a half um and it's it's intense i mean i really respect the rigor they put us through it was really important at the time because people were like you know is bitcoin illegal how can we trust this so having the new york department of financial services on our side

35:38ben lowsky is the guy the superintendent at the time who pioneered this having them uh their sort of sign of approval was was really was really um helpful because um it helped us build a trust and then we could get a bank um bank account with a bank now if you start a company that's that you can you can incorporate and open a bank account in the same afternoon but if you say crypto or cannabis like all of a sudden you you now can

36:11only talk to five banks in the entire country that will take your call and even that's like a big process so when you have something like a new york trust company license that is the type of license that bank of new york started with that brown brothers harriman has the state street started with um that really makes the conversation a lot easier it's still a difficult conversation but um it's because of what new york did that new york state that allowed us to actually start this adventure so regular so thought basically if you

36:44get the regulation right it really cannot it allowed us to build a business we now employ 330 people most of them are in new york and i like to say they're not just jobs they're careers you know people come here and they go on to great things a lot of people have been here from day one but we're really changing like this is an economic um miracle story that is all a result of of healthy thoughtful regulation and you've gone down the hard path which i always like to take like it's it's to take the steps that other people are not prepared to

37:17take yeah and so by going through the regulators you went through massive pain to come out the other side and i'm assuming because you saw the long-term kind of um because of the long-term vision yeah that like as soon as we start this thing we don't want to be stopped by the regulators or b scapegoats in the media or all that type of stuff and so you've taken the hard path with that i mean well it sounds like the very hard path and so you're obviously very committed to this kind of industry from that point of

37:49launching like like how did you get traction because because now you've got the license you started the business and now it's a business and now you have to grow the business and so so what were some of the things that you did like in the early days to get that traction yeah so um one of our values is the long game um and it's super important because you're absolutely right like um it's much more profitable right now in crypto to be short game um the most the biggest businesses right now are

38:22unregulated offshore so there's times when it looks like wow like i wish we could be doing that a little bit more um but you have to have conviction because um those kind of businesses are limited time only i think you're already seeing some regulatory enforcement so i didn't want to start on this adventure for only five years and you know make as much money as we can try to not get in trouble and then ride off into the sunset um you know for better or worse we were already public figures so uh that might

38:56work for someone else who's anonymous and then they quickly do their thing before regulators wake up they're gone um that really wasn't a game we could play or we're willing to play so um we want to be in this for the long term and i think our athletic background kind of taught us that you in sport or anything whether it's an instrument or trying to be a be excellent at anything like changes take a long time and you know you improve over years and you think about things in like olympic

39:27cycles of the next four years you get your chance again so like it's very long-term thinking it's day in day out grind um so there is no shortcuts in the sport of rowing in most you know sports anything that looks like an overnight success has really been like a decade probably in the making um even bitcoin you know people are waking up and my friend max raskin he wrote an article about this and he said like yeah bitcoins overnight success it's been a decade in the making

40:00um you know it's it's it's super fun right now but like you know i i've been in this you're it sounds like you're in crypto right like um you know we the winter is cold you know it's harsh right the crypto winner um and you know we had to have the conviction and the fortitude to get through that so that that's just in our dna myself and cameron we're very sort of committed to we we just believe that the real results take a long time so how do we get people to join well

40:32we blogged about it we got some press in media the cool thing about the crypto community um especially back then it was like very loyal people were excited uh it was a very underdog mentality so it wasn't hard to get the industry and community's attention um and it's like i said like it's not like day one you open your doors and like boom there's a tidal wave um because people got to sign up kyc put in their documents link their bank accounts

41:04i mean we there were some um there were some blogs who like a day or two in kind of like was like knocked our volume or like you can't even like i mean it's it's just hard to sign up that quickly and for people to start putting trader algorithms up now you can sign up to gemiini in under 90 seconds we have a mobile app but back then on day one you know you're talking about mvp product and you're asking people to put like millions of dollars i mean you can't even like get millions of dollars in your e-trade account like that you know so um it takes time but like all of a sudden you look back

41:39and like look how far we've come and you can say the same thing with the bitcoin industry the quality of entrepreneurs okay my first bitcoin investment was also bitcoin but also in a company called bit instant and the ceo and founder went to jail he's bitcoin's first felon um and that was uh that was one of the the the better companies in crypto that and you had mount cox so you can imagine kind of how like if i was horrified by that that i was like in my early 30s and kind of a you know risk taker uh

42:12still am what do you think the institutional money thinks of that you know of course they're gonna think this is a joke they meet these people they see people going to jail they see silk road they see that getting busted for jail so we had to totally change that um narrative and i think bitcoin has but like it's just time you know there's no like there's no hollywood fix even you see these like diet um programs it's like we're gonna lose weight so quick like you gotta change your your lifestyle your mentality it comes quick but

42:44it does take time you know like anything and so you launched in 2015 and then and then there was the massive run and the whole world was on it and then all of the social networks and search networks and everywhere just they banned any talk of it like any advertising of it and so on but how did you handle that massive growth between whatever it was 2016-17 because the whole world came onto it right it was pretty insane um we we handled it as best we could i think like many many companies that

43:16were already operational it was just like keep your head above water keep the lights on try not to drown um there was days when you get like tens of thousands of new users and you know things weren't as automated back then so it was like humans going through licenses and ky seeing people um that's why like crypto winner when the price came down and things calm down we're like wow we get a breather we can we can build now and like thank goodness so

43:47you have to play your strengths to both both sides like i have a friend who went through the navy seals and they do all these exercises right in the water in the sand and he's like when i was cold in the water i was thinking about like how great it would be to run on the beach and then when i was running on the beach with the boat on my head and putting the logs up i was seeing how great the water would be so you kind of have to like play them back and forth and just kind of like um be grateful for what you are in but take advantage like there's no time to get better customers than the bull run people should be coming in during the winter

44:20but they always do the opposite you know they see the price action and they come in um so so it was it was hard like it was just scaling and kind of keeping systems up versus um kind of building new so the crypto winner like it sucks a bit because your revenue comes down you're not making as much money um but you can build a lot of stuff and there was a point in 2017 where um we went from like 50 to 150 in like a month or two

44:54we just threw 100 people um and very high quality people we did not um lose that or compromise that but all of a sudden you know we were myself and cameron were leading a company of like 15 people became 20 25 wow 30s a lot and then literally overnight like 150 um we tried to interview everyone to until we couldn't we were in asia for two weeks promoting a product and we were just blocked it was going to

45:26block you know the hiring you know pipeline so we we just you know delegated that so we no longer were in every every hiring but we literally everyone from the most generous the most senior for the first 75 which is great because you sort of set the culture but now i feel that the culture is so strong and everybody in it knows what it is they're all stewards and custodians of it that they they understand it as well as i do um so it was um it was growing pains you know it's like

45:59being a teenager you like have this growth spurt and you're like super gawky and you like aren't coordinated and that so we we started in a 5 000 square foot office and then we um open up but we were got some space and wework and then the we work became four times bigger than the office we start like the headquarters um and in the meantime we looked for a new office that's 50 000 square feet and we've been in that for um a couple of years now and we have a smaller office in portland oregon

46:32about 30 people we have an office in chicago an office in london in singapore many places where you have to get licensed they require you to have some boots on the ground and people like they're like ahead of um office in london head of compliance there in addition to you know the head of compliance in new york so um yeah we built a global footprint i um it's really cool like it's kind of i mean it's definitely intimidating to you know uh you start a company right

47:03leading people like these people really want to follow me um and you kind of get over that like i don't know quickly hopefully um and then all of a sudden 20 you know 30 no the same as 20 and 100 is the same as like if the company goes becomes a thousand it won't feel different to me at this point um it was really kind of like the first 15 people it was kind of like the founding team yeah um that was new but at some point it's it's kind of like i don't know if you've done public speaking or something when you're in a stage that's so big it's

47:37like a spacewalk um you can't even see people it's almost like you're you're talking to yourself versus like uh giving a talk in a coffee shop is like really intimate you can see everyone's eyes and everyone's face so um you know the company changes but it's it's it's been wild but i mean it's a dream come true i think that um when we got in this journey in 2012 i said i was going to be sitting here talking to you in um and this is going to be the facts and

48:08this is where gemini is and whatever i i'd be tickled pink so you know very grateful yeah great great and um so so you're an investor like like in crypto itself you've created the platform where people can purchase and exchange and trade and all that type of stuff and so but you've also got that part of it but you also have an investment company called winklevoss capital is that right that's right and what kind of companies are you investing in

48:39so when cost capital predates crypto um and basically we are most excited with the earliest stage companies like the entrepreneurs that are just starting out um that's super exciting um find bright people hear their ideas and try and be the first money in um most of them like with a technology focus um doesn't have to be we've actually put some money into consumer packaged good companies and

49:14um but like you know pure tech plays pure software plays um and it's it's sort of like um anything that is solving a problem for someone else and i know that sounds vague but like we started building gemini because we wanted to solve our problem you know a local problem we started rowing in high school but there was actually no team my next-door neighbor was a was a rower he went to boarding school i wanted to try the sport there was no team but there was water so we started it

49:45um so that was like our first startup we said you know okay i'm not gonna accept this answer i'm frustrated by that i'm gonna do something about it um so that's how we got into rowan we started the team then became olympians that was the early that was kind of how we started with with social networking we wanted a better way to connect with students so we started social network um and with gemiini so i think when i see that in other entrepreneurs they've been living with the problem they're frustrated they have a good way to build it um you know you could say

50:18it's it's about reducing friction it's building a better world you know it's it's all the same thing it's sort of like um you know people who have the courage to not accept the world they've inherited and realized that like hey i can actually shape this change this and and the way the way i want so um that's kind of like the ethos um we've invested a lot of those companies so this swing bus capital started in 2012. we incorporated in early 2012.

50:52we went on vacation to ibiza we found bitcoin um and so we started investing bitcoin um but many of the companies there wasn't there was it was only bitcoin there was no crypto there was no ethereum no ether and so a lot of winklevoss capital investments were into startups so we're not crypto and over time um we've invested in a lot of startups that are crypto like it's sort of like crypto is becoming like it all it's kind of coming together whereas like venture capital um really wasn't necessarily internet companies

51:28and at some point um it became that but before that it was like semiconductors was personal computing a lot of hardware sort of technology stuff and there was no funds dedicated to big tech companies that was a novel exotic idea for a fund to focus on that in the 90s and similar to to crypto there just wasn't that many great entrepreneurs or great stuff being built so now saving globus capital is like it was like doing non-crypto stuff

52:01we would do we'd own bitcoin and we're doing other stuff and now it has a huge focus on on crypto companies as well so like protocol labs were first money and protocol labs which created falcoin which is uh similar to ethereum um but it's decentralized storage so if a theorem is decentralized computing um think of like amazon elastic computing um file coins like amazon s3 buckets where you just store data so um that is a winklevoss capital company

52:34another company um called flexport which is helping freight forwarding basically making it uh electronifying the idea of moving freight from let's say china to the us you know there's there's like fax machines it's opaque there's like manuals of like different code it's like dark ages right and so they're making it transparent tech enabled and they've been doing great um you know we were the first money in there they now

53:07are well over a billion dollar valuation type company i think they recently took a round from softbank so and then founders fund before that so um it's really fun to to follow that transaction or the progression of of those companies but um the interesting thing is like crypto's so liquid um you know you don't have to wait 10 years for the company to ipo you can buy the token and it's liquid today you can trade in and out of it on on gemini so the model of like how a

53:42startup raises money um does it raise from a venture capitalist does it do a token sale um it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out yeah right so outside of blockchain uh what are some of the biggest trends that you're seeing for the future which you're excited about and which you're investing in or just looking to invest in that is a great question um because i know the whole conversation's been around blockchain so far but i know you're doing other stuff too for sure like yeah i mean we are and this is always when you like sort of

54:16blank in the interview but like um there's a lot of interesting infrastructure companies in that are now servicing blockchain so um we use a company called plaid to help people link their bank accounts which is i wouldn't consider it a crypto company it's not an investment of ours but like its infrastructure that we use i imagine that many other exchanges use as well there's a company called taxpid that we invested in that's helping make crypto taxes easier so gemini is going to probably is going to use them right

54:47at some point we're already integrating with them companies like coinbase like all the other exchanges are going to need to provide this service for their customers and it's probably a service that they themselves just don't want to be get you know they're on the business of that um so there's amazing like plumbing startups that maybe don't touch crypto but allow the crypto industry to grow and at this point like the industry's getting so big in my feeling is that it will be so big that we may not have to we may do most

55:22of our investings in it um so in terms of trends i gotta say that like i really have been thinking only crypto trends yeah i got that from your answer it's like well if it's not blockchain it's the infrastructure supporting blockchain that's not the ugly blockchain can you tell i'm kind of hooked on this i can tell so okay vr is obviously something that's going to be the future right um the hard thing to know though is like how do you get on that train

55:55you know what do i invest in um and is that the kind of game that's going to be won by like the big tech companies like apple facebook you know is there an opportunity um ai is a huge trend you know there's nothing new there i'm not spilling any beans again how do you get into that um so you know cannabis you mentioned too before i meant like is that something which you are looking at yeah okay that's a great i'm glad you brought that out we invested in ease which is um kind of like an uber uber for

56:30for cannabis right so you as an app comes to your house um super easy um you gotta know what you're buying um and so he uses cannabis but like everybody has a cannabis idea right so you can find your way into cannabis but what's the quality is it is it dispensary is the tech enabled you know platform like ease you know we went for the software because that's what we know but there's um you know everybody has a cannabis

57:02idea obviously cannabis is here to stay huge trend um you know uh i think psychedelics right psilocybin um was was a big win in the ballots in 2020 so i think you're going to see uh the same cannabis trends um happening with psychedelics it's a new it's a sort of a new frontier um in a good way um so that's going to be cool to say see but like you know to be frank most of

57:35our energy has really been got going into building in the last couple of years especially with gemini we recently acquired this platform called nifty gateway that allows people to trade buy sell and store digital art and collectibles so you can program uh art that's scarce on the blockchain now and so niftygateway.com we've got a lot of artists to create art for it and we have users we have a great audience that buys this stuff and we do drops

58:07similar to how uh sneaker culture does a collaboration with an artist like a nike sneaker or something in air jordan with some artists they do a drop people buy them they wait hours in line to get the special edition shoes they might wear them they might put them on their shelves show their friends they might just flip it and sell it um so we brought some of that culture to the blockchain so between building gemini and nifty gateway and all this stuff um you know we've definitely been putting our mind there

58:39um but but investing is really cool because you know we meet young people and see new ideas so and that's kind of how we got into bitcoin so we kind of want to keep that muscle going a little bit so a couple more questions of where we're done um what would you do differently if you started over back in 2012 you know so what were some of the lessons of what would you change what would you do differently i would say the most obvious thing is probably get a mobile app out earlier um you know one thing i didn't quite

59:13appreciate is that a lot of a lot of gen zeurs um or young folks like that is their laptop they don't they don't even have um a computer uh that is their computer in their hand um so with our experience without gox we we message that like institutional exchange it's very important to be the institutional guys um but crypto's really been a retail phenomenon for for for you know forever um and so we we have definitely moved into

59:47we have a retail store now we've had an app for a couple of years um it's great um you know but having that a couple years earlier might have caught the market where it was as opposed to where it was going so in some i'd say like this we almost built a little bit too much to where the puck was headed like the wayne gretzky you know quote where he says like i i i don't skate to where the puck is i skate towards going but you want to make sure to you know kind of grab the puck too and

01:00:20bring it with you um so i think that um we might have just started like pure retail more retail first which doesn't mean you have to get rid of the institutional grade technology it's just you have to make it you know user friendly for them so we have an incredible retail story today but i would have um front loaded that a little bit more yeah sure okay good a couple of quick fire questions and then we'll wrap up with um basically how people can get involved in the gemini

01:00:53exchange so the five quick five questions um number one what book has had the biggest impact on your success oof um that is tough because i think i think of books that each book sort of trains your mental model and it's hard to know which one had the biggest effect um but one that i did love that i think is super it resonated with me a lot is zero to one by peter thiel if you really to understand the art of startups and how and why they work and a lot of it's

01:01:27really counterintuitive like i'd be the person who'd be like oh you want to launch like a perfect product wait till it gets all right that's exactly what you don't want to do you want to launch a product that's almost embarrassing um and or at least you look back on it and it's embarrassing and you want to get out there quick and iterate and find the the traction um so this book is like a bible for anyone who wants to understand how how startups work and peter thiel of course is legendary uh you know paypal founder legendary investor

01:02:01um one of a great polymath one of the greatest deepest thinkers from you know silicon valley so that's a great starting point and i would say you know i would start with that for sure cool number two what's your number one piece of advice for hiring awesome people which you've obviously had to do with gemiini a lot of them yeah my dad always said like he tries to hire people that are smarter than him and i've tried to follow that so always hire people smarter than you um

01:02:35that are um just brilliant and incredible um i recently read the netflix book by reed hastings and i think erica meyer no rules rules they have this concept of every every employee should be stunning a stunning colleague um only hire people that are absolutely stunning um you know i think that never compromised that i'd also say that um higher in terms of three things um i would hire

01:03:06uh your values are the most important part like integrity character right um those are things that are really baked in and hard to change and then abilities which are sort of raw horsepower which are also hard to change and then you have skills so when you're assessing someone you have to get the values right like do you know are they high integrity high character trustworthy people right that's the most important thing

01:03:38um the second is the ability abilities like the raw horsepower the skills is the least important the easiest to change if i get someone with great values high abilities i can teach them skills gemini will teach them skills and like experience is like kind of not that helpful or important crypto because everything's so new and a lot of times experience is another word of saying like bad habits or bad assumptions and you're bringing all this baggage and to gemini like i prefer a clean slate

01:04:10give me give me a person who the clean slate high integrity incredible values and incredible abilities we'll take care of the rest so those two uh mental frameworks you know a stunning bar and sort of like values abilities skills i think are are really a good way to think about hiring and then also um you know yeah you're going to be like spending more time with this per these people than you know you're sitting you're significant others so you better like them you know yeah i hear you on that one

01:04:42i'll hear you on that one number three what's your best time management or productivity tip that's good um i've been thinking about this recently i think people make mistake of not chunking things enough so i recently read this blog that said if you read 30 minutes a day even if you're a slow reader they did the math you will read 50 books a year now that's a lot of books and if you're a fast reader you read an hour i guess that means you read 100 books a year 10 years it's a thousand books you'd be

01:05:15one of the most well-read people you know um and maybe in the world right and and books are like the ultimate skill because they you can learn anything you can learn how to pro program um learn how to entrepreneurship uh crypto whatever so um i think people make the mistake of thinking well i need an hour of free time to read and you have a minute five minutes here 10 minutes here you take the subway you take the cab you're sitting in the doctor's office waiting for your

01:05:47appointment if you have a kindle like you can find 30 minutes a day and all of a sudden you're reading um 50 books a year and most people sort of say oh i gotta wait for them on vacation then i'll i'll read these books i've been meaning to get to and they procrastinate because they they um take it too big and then work calls you when you're on the beach and there's an emergency and then you don't read it so i think chunking things in really small bits like you could literally learn a language learn a new instrument you could read 50 or 100 books in a year if you thought in like five or ten

01:06:22minute chunks and just found those moments each day which we all know we have a ton of them as opposed to waiting for like oh i've got the like this big an hour now i'm going to learn piano in an hour or now i'm going to learn french or spanish and just 10 minutes a day or chunks of 10 minutes a day you get super efficient um so i think that's a really important time management thing that i'm trying to work on like you know not waiting for too much space and being too perfect but really

01:06:56diving in and constantly like it's like startups like constantly iterating and learning yes on that book side of things i think i read some similar article where it said um instead of opening up your social apps just get the kindle app on your phone and hide your social apps and have that be the first thing that you open and i tried that and in a month i read three books and you know it's hard to maintain it so like i have to go back to it but that's like that's it that's that exact point and i was like oh just open that up not the other one yeah and three times 12 right you know 36 books that's like you i mean we all would grow a lot from

01:07:33that and of course pick like um you know pick books that you really like right you know um so i think i think there's there's there's a choice like you you the only thing we have is time i i love this idea like i me you know you may think i have bitcoin but i only have bitcoin as much as i have time on this earth um and any possession every anything you have or own or done like it really means you just have time yeah so we're all investors and time is more precious than bitcoin

01:08:06you know finite we don't know how much we have um there's not that much of it so we have to use it wisely and some people invest it incredibly wisely they understand the game they're playing and you know they're uh you have folks like elon musk he jeff bezos he doesn't have more time than me isn't more time than you but you know he's using it and he's finding leverage and he's getting this output and it doesn't always have to be like oh successful company or whatever you can create tremendous output with

01:08:40learning and growth and reading just got to build those leverages yeah yeah chord number four what's the best piece of business advice that you've ever received oh um i feel like there's so much i think um i don't know if i received it or just kind of learned it only do business with people that you enjoy kind of thing like um the same thing with picking co-founder it's it's like a marriage you know you're gonna be wedded to this

01:09:11person for at least a decade um so if there's any question or you're making excuses like this person's really brilliant but they're kind of shady or they're kind of a jerk don't even come close to it you know or if it's a partner um you're trying to work with someone or a customer or client and they're just they don't share your values or they're just too difficult um it's just not worth it you know you find the people who understand your value that you guys see eye to eye

01:09:45that there's you know that you're in sync on so um if it's too difficult i find like even in the hiring process when you find yourself like hustling too much to pitch the company and the person doesn't get it like it just wasn't meant to be and you'll find like incredible people who you don't have to hustle and you know you do your pitch they pitch you and it's a beautiful thing it's like a great relationship both people are engaged no one's chasing they're both chasing each other um you know head over heels like i think i

01:10:19think like forcing it if you want it that you get a bad kind of thing like so i've i've sort of learned to think you know you try and hire someone you you you don't get them and you know early on you're kind of disappointed maybe you're like damn like could i have sold it better but like it had nothing to do with you or like gemini or something else it was this little person's you know they just weren't that into crypto or they their wife didn't let them you know her husband didn't let them join

01:10:52um or you know they had to pay a certain bill and take a you know a job at a hedge fund um so just kind of like being okay with all like letting it go and realizing that like good like i'm happy for them happy for me uh they're they're like it just wasn't the right fit you know um i don't know i'm i'm blabbing a little bit but it's good yeah look i think the point around um you want to like the people that you do business with i hear you i couldn't

01:11:25agree more and have people around you that are good and just let things go like don't hold on to them too much you know um if things don't happen they don't happen doesn't mean to not stop taking action but don't be too stuck on it you know like it will happen if you put some good stuff out there and you keep yeah i mean like forward and you're not going to click with everyone you know it's okay yeah um but uh you know when it just fits right and it's like the person is like um and sometimes it's a person you like can't you like a really they're a

01:11:59superstar and it the cell's so easy and some person who's much less of a superstar more junior and they like you know reject the offer and you're like how does that make sense you know the the person who's like the real rock star like was so easy to talk to and they came and the person who's like super junior was asking all these questions and like difficult and they like you know didn't take the offer so yeah like i don't like you you learn these things when you do a startup

01:12:32it's one of the hardest things you ever do but it teaches you so much respect for your time and it's so much possible um those are my little tidbits number five is last question now how do you relax after a crazy day in the office or home office wherever is the office these days yeah the office is everywhere right so how do you relax after a crazy day so two thing like working out is great it's a great mood alterer for me um you get the endorphins flowing so either

01:13:04run get a good sweat on lift some weights um anything active is great um i love reading i love films i play the piano i grew up playing piano and i restarted playing at like 35 again i'm 39 so about four years ago i just was like i need something else in my life same by the way when i was 32 i was like i got to do this again it is something that's not just about achievement i did something just because you know i know it's it's a sickness we're all like indoctrinated it's like achieve achieve go go go go go um at

01:13:38some point you can't you can't just do that um and then meditation um i've been um on and off a meditator for um maybe seven years i learned from this guy tom knowles a guru um he's based in arizona but he travels the world he's got a website he's great uh it's a mantra based meditation but i've been in and out of practice but like if you're feeling stressed you've got a headache you know you just your mind's spinning and you've got to go to bed and you've had the longest day

01:14:11and you've got a long day coming up um you know 20 minutes of meditation is quite a good way to just flush your brain your mind and wipe it which is also very good at night because sometimes if you work out too late right it keeps you up you know it feels so good but sometimes you want to work out in the morning it sets your day up but you don't want to do that kind of activity so an instrument or a movie or meditation are incredible ways to wind down

01:14:44i've always found like i always say my temple is like a movie theater not anymore i guess because of cobid and lockdowns but like um in mad men don draper would go you know work all day have these ideas and then you go to the movies right and the idea of eureka idea would come because neurologically you're just using a different part of your brain you're creating that space i find if i go to a great movie and just watch it i just it feels like meditative for me um and so you know you can do that in your house and stuff so

01:15:16i think these things that use different parts your brain not just work work work business cryptocrypto the thing i love about crypto is it's so intellectually stimulating and it does touch so many different things that i don't feel like i'm in one track right you've got economic theory computer science um so many different disciplines that you think about and learn that it's like an intellectual feast but still it's like the context of like gemini and work and crypto and it's great to just throw on like a classic

01:15:50movie or read a book then totally switch off i think that's so important and it makes you better at business too like you get your ideas over there and you come back and forth and it reduces stress and stress we're all like dying of chronic stress right so yeah right and now for people um who want to get into crypto or that are into crypto already and they want like a better way to trade to buy how does gemini work so it's pretty simple um you can come to gemiini.com

01:16:22or you can go find our app in the app store on apple or android uh you download you open an account um then you connect your bank or your debit card um and you can place an order to buy crypto like bitcoin so um it's similar if anyone's ever traded stocks they've opened up an e-trade account or a schwab account it's b or an online bank account it's basically like opening up an online banking account we ask you to verify who you are it's pretty quick we can do it in 90

01:16:54seconds automatically you add your credit card or your debit card link your bank account and um click buy for however much you want so we've got 26 cryptos um bitcoin ether as we mentioned zcash a bunch of others we'll be adding more and right now you can buy sell or store your crypto but we're gonna be getting the things like earning spending more more sort of money verbs is what i like to say um so we're trying to speed this like one

01:17:27stop shop for you to come and get into crypto and across the world are there specific countries yeah so we're open in every 50 state um we're in the uk europe canada singapore hong kong australia um some parts in south america we actually have areas of uh availability on the website but but we have like pretty big coverage like over 100 countries so chances are we're open where you live yeah great and um i mean you hear

01:18:03how excited tyler is about the crypto space he's been in it since 2013. he's still in it i tried to ask him about things outside of crypto and it was all about crypto but thank you so much for sharing like your thoughts um your beliefs um and just your passion and excitement around the whole industry there's not too many people that can speak about it um at the level which you speak about it and just kind of smart the institutional level as well unless the fly-by-night people like which everyone kind of hears about you know

01:18:35and so i really appreciate um the time on the podcast um today and if you're listening and and um you're into crypto sign up at gemini dot com is that right is it oh yeah it's it's it's the spelled as the astrological sign so g-e-m-i-n-i gemini.com fantastic tyler thank you so much for your time today um enjoy the piano the movie and the meditation yeah thank you so much for having this was a really fun conversation i appreciate it and thanks for the kind words

01:19:06fantastic tyler i'll speak to you soon man all right bye thanks for listening to the growth manifesto podcast if you enjoyed the episode please give us a five star rating on itunes for more episodes please visit forward slash growthmanifesto.com and if you need help driving growth for your company please get in touch with us at web profits dot io